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10th December 2007, 17:48
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,461
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Buwat yang beragama, The atheist strike back !
Karena banyaknya pertanyaan dan pernyataan tentang hal yang itu2 saja, maka saya cupipes lagi postingan pertama saya di thread yang telah dilock ama momod ... mudah2an bisa menjelaskan ...
postingan pertama dari thread ini malah saya pindah ke postingan ke 3 ...
Quote:
Ini ada bacaan bagus, mengenai agama ..
BTW inggris yah, males terjemahin gini panjang ...
Bagi yang rajin membaca aja ne ...
How will the world without Religions ?
Before read this article u have to know this is a (for some people its very) offensive article. Read with consciousness. And its not to pass judgement to who u are and not to persuade or invite anyone to believe or accept anything from this article.
1. The Pro's
Religion-
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
Let us “imagine no religion.” The big bang is true and we evolved from animals. That makes humans simply animals, chemically structured like any other, and nothing more. Animals fight for territory, of course not with nuclear weapons, although they would use them if they had the mental capacity to do so. I know it sounds funny, but imagine what a lion would do if he could just dispose of a competitor by merely pulling a trigger. Animals do not believe in religion (or else it's simply impossible) yet there are violent animals, which nonbelievers claim we might have evolved from. So wouldn’t that mean that, even without religion, there would be war?
“Religions” have a large following (the vast majority of the world believe in some type of organized religion) and these have the primary goal of installing good morals into their followers; take away these morals and you have a society that is bent on getting their way and they have nothing to stop them. To put it bluntly, the world would be in total anarchy - survival of the fittest (to the extreme), if you will. Sure, some empires would prosper and would know how to keep things together, but what about the other billions of people with nothing to go by and no basic guidelines telling them how to be a good person?
I will go as far as saying this: the day this world does not abide by religion will be the day we are overrun with agnostics and supposed “atheists.” I believe a more suitable line would be, "Imagine total destruction.
"Religion is the single thing that keeps people in check these days and by far the only thing keeping us from having absolutely no morals.
Religion does not kill - man does - case closed.
2. The Con's
Atheism- The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
Don't forget that it takes just as much faith to not believe in God as it takes to believe in God
I saw a program on religion vs. science a few weeks ago on BBC in England (might have been BBC2). Richard Dawkins was talking to a devout Muslim who was trying to convince him that people would have no morals without religion and that only religion is keeping them from killing each other and raping women. I know you're not a Muslim, but it states you are talking about religion in general, not a specific one. Richard Dawkins reply was "Oh so you would go and rape women if you suddenly realized or believed your religion was wrong?". I think we can safely say the answer would (hopefully) be "No" for most people. I don't believe in God or any other similar religious ideas like that. I don't kill people, I don't steal, I love and respect my parents...and none of these things were induced on me by religion.
I never understood why people believe they're being "good" people, by being "good" for the sake of a religion. If the only thing keeping them from being murderous is their faith in some supreme being, then they are some sad, sad people.The notion that we are but wild beasts kept in check by religion is insulting to humans everywhere. The notion that people are not out burning and killing because they're afraid of God or because they want to go to Heaven makes religious morality's sources to be FEAR and REWARD. I simply deny that fear and rewards are what should motivate us to be moral. We should be moral because we are HUMAN, and yes, animals, but with higher intelligence, so with no excuse to behave like other animals.
You can do a little research and find out the quality of living in the countries with the highest percentage of atheists. Sweden and Finland among them. You can also look at the theocracies of Iran and Afghanistan in comparison.
"Animals do not believe in religion yet there are violent animals, which nonbelievers claim we might have evolved from. So wouldn’t that mean that even without religion there would be war?"
The key word is "evolved". Lower animals are violent because they HAVE to be. A cheetah cannot stop preying on zebras, instead making a vegetable farm to live on, or find ways of killing zebras without causing tons of pain. Yes, there will ALWAYS be violence, but without religion, there will be less reason for violence.
"Religion does not kill. Man does."
I say back, "God didn't make religion. Man did."
3. The Agnostics
Agnostic - One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
I can say to you that atheism means that one went the length of the universe and one found no presence of God. This, by today’s means, would be impossible to accomplish. One cannot completely eliminate God, because one has no evidence that He does not exist. One can only be agnostic.
First some background - I was born in Finland, and as is custom, was baptised when I was a couple of months old. Since then, my beliefs have gone from one extreme to the other: at the age of 15 I was thinking of studying theology. I ended up leaving the church at age 18 and am currently studying biotechnology. Some of you might think I am a biased evolutionary natural scientist for that. On the contrary. I think I have a wider view on the matter than most.
I have to say that I resent organised religion. Anyone knowing their history should know that all religions are created by man, and therefore are flawed, none being better than the other. Why people prefer one religion over the other has mainly to do with how they were raised: in which country, into which beliefs. Can any christian honestly say, that if they had been born in Iran, they would have converted to christianity once they heard of it? I say they would be dancing around praising Allah with the rest. Brainwashing might be a harsh term, but when you learn something as a child, it's hard to unlearn it later. I think it is one of the greatest injustices of our time that kids are forced to learn about religion. They should first hear about religion once they are old enough to form oppinions of their own.
Now, as much as I hate organised religion, with all it's dogmatics, nearly as much do I hate atheism. I might describe myself mainly as an agnostic. But an atheist I am not. I believe in the limits of the human mind. Go to the reaches of all Einsteins four dimensions (though there might be more), and I'll be damned if you don't feel there's something more to everything. More than man can ever understand. Call it weakness if you like, but I have faith that there is a meaning to everything.. ..though I'm alright with it if there's not.. and if someone can prove it to me. In any case, my beliefs are not motivated by the fear of my own mortality, I'm fine with it.
I believe in evolution, up to a certain point at least. No one can deny that breeding results in changes in the genome of a species, and that this in turn effects how the species looks and behaves. Still, as one of our professors at the university said: the more you study microbiology, the less you can believe everything is there because of natural selection and chance. I have a hard time believing that DNA-polymerase just happened to form from nucleotides in an ancient ocean.
The main motivator in my belief of a higher meaning: I have a hard time figuring out why anything should exist in the first place. The first rule of thermodynamics states: Energy can not be created nor destroyed. So where did it all come from? I have no problem in believing that all the mass in the universe was once in one singularity, and then exploded and formed the universe. But I have huge issues understanding where that singularity came from.
Now, concerning morality. I believe that every person knows right from wrong; I believe it is hardwired into everyone of us. In my oppinion this is easily explained by evolution. It simply makes sence not to kill the members of your tribe.. or not to steal for that matter. -"Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you." Anything smarter than a monkey should understand that without someone telling them.
Appologies for any and all mistakes. English isn't my native language. And appologies also for this long, meaningless rant. Mainly clearing my own thoughts to myself. It's hard to write anything elevating in a 800*500 pixel white box.
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Last edited by OffLimit; 18th January 2008 at 20:04..
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10th December 2007, 18:06
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Addict Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 259
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kalau begitu, tunjukkan bukti Tuhan itu TIDAK WUJUD. dont try to avoid my question pula ya.
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jangan persoalkan kesetiaan saya pada anwar ibrahim. saya reformis sejati!!
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10th December 2007, 18:09
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,461
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Ini satu lagi argumentasi seorang Atheist yang gw suka ...
This is my take on religion. Thousands of years ago man began to wonder what the hell was going on. There was so much that they didn't understand that they decided that there must be someone behind the scenes controlling things. Reasonable thing to do if you are a caveman.
I think that most religions are based on the ideas that came out of a lack of understanding. Many of the things that they didn't understand back then have now been explained, but the biggy, "why the hell are we here", hasn't.
So does religion still have a place in the world today? I think that there are many, many people who can't cope with the modern world. Not their fault, the world has changed so quickly recently that people are no longer well adapted for it. For many of these people religion is a major support. And good luck to them. But for me the big question still hangs in the air. Why are we here? Where did everything come from? It seems that many people want to answer this with "God made it all". Now, OK, but that then simply begs the question "and what made God?" To anyone that then gives the answer "that isn't a valid question" or "God has always existed", I say that they are avoiding the question, not answering it. The real answer is that no one knows. So if we are happy to admit that we don't know where we all came from or why we are here, then we also don't need a half answer that God represents. Let's just stick with the fact that we don't know.
However, if there is a god and he (for the sake of syntax not gender preference) wants me to follow his rules then he is going to have to let me know personally and directly. No disrespect to him, but since people are very unreliable I'm sure he won't mind if I choose not to believe any of them that are preaching things that they have no proof of. There are more religions that you can shake a stick at and they all know that they are right. In most cases they preach peace and forgiveness but fight each other and in some cases, fight amongst themselves. Not a good sign if you want my devotion.
Fiuh selesai jg, ada komentar ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamsan
Ini adalah terjemahan bebas dari Posting #1, khusus buat yg males mbaca bhs madura
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Many thnx for bamsan ...
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Last edited by OffLimit; 18th January 2008 at 20:05..
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10th December 2007, 18:38
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Mania Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: under the
blanket...
Posts: 4,229
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Gue pake betawi aja dah....lebih resep...
Ikutan......tapi ini cerita temen ya'.....(temen lagiiii, temen lagiii)
Temen ane si A pemeluk agama yang ta'at sekali....punya temen yang udah kayak bapak nya aja....tu orang atheis tapi die baeeeek bener....mereka gak pernah debat apalagi memaksakan soal keyakinan masing-masing....tapi si bapak selalu nolong kalu si A dalam kesulitan....
si A sering ngomongin soal si bapak ini...katanya biar tu orang atheis tapi tu bapaklah orang terbaik yang pernah dijumpai selama idup....dan bapak itu pun hidupnya bahagia...punya istri yang baik dan punya anak-anak yang sopan dan berhasil dalam hidup....die meninggal setelah mengalami kebutaan (tapi kebutaannya bukan penyebab meninggalnya beliau) yang cukup lama....tapi die gak nyalahin siapa-siapa akan kebutaannya dan tidak pernah putus asa cuma karena die buta......
Si A ngebandingin si bapak dengan orang yang banyak disekitarnya yang mengaku beragama tapi jahat....kena masalah dikit, langsung rame...berisik..
Lama-lama setelah ngobrol-ngobrol...kami sampai pada satu kesimpulan bahwa yang dibutuhkan manusia yang disebut homo social ini adalah ketrampilan-ketrampilan hidup untuk berdampingan dan bersosialisasi....
Gimana caranya kita bisa saling mengisi, hidup dengan aman dan nyaman bersama....karena pada dasarnya manusia sama....butuh "keamanan"....yang akan membuat nyaman....
Temen ane jadi ingat cerita Yesus yang ditanya murid-muridnya siapa yang masuk sorga......Yesus cerita ada orang Yahudi terpandang sedang melakukan perjalanan (Yahudi pada saat itu merasa paling bertuhan)....di tengah jalan die dirampok abis-abisan sampe sekarat dan hampir telanjang....lewat orang Yahudi juga....die lari terbirit-birit karena takut kalau sama orang asing di jalan....lewat lagi orang Yahudi satu lagi...lewat gitu aja karena takut die sendiri malah kena masalah.....lalu lewat orang Samaria yang dikenal saat itu bangsa yang tidak bertuhan...
Orang Samaria tak bertuhan ini malah merawat orang Yahudi kerampokan ini sampai sembuh.....sampai di sini Yesus menyetop ceritanya...
Nah lo....ane jadi mikir sebenernye ente mo percaya Tuhan gak percaya Tuhan pan as a matter of label.....cap doang....dari kaca mata orang lain yang ngeliat.........iye gak?
Yang kita butuhkan sekarang, sangat mendesak adalah ketrampilan hidup bersama....jadi gak usahlah gede-gedein perbedaan....cari persamaan....kayak ngomongin musik....kite seneng denger musik eh tu orang demen ama jenis musik yang sama pan enak.....kite demen sayur asem, eh ternyata orang nyang eno demen sayur asem juga....pan resep....
Hare gene ngomongin agama ama atheis....please deh....
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booooorrriiiiing...........
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10th December 2007, 18:49
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellene de Batavia
Ikutan......tapi ini cerita temen ya'.....(temen lagiiii, temen lagiii)
Temen ane si A pemeluk agama yang ta'at sekali....punya temen yang udah kayak bapak nya aja....tu orang atheis tapi die baeeeek bener....mereka gak pernah debat apalagi memaksakan soal keyakinan masing-masing....tapi si bapak selalu nolong kalu si A dalam kesulitan....
si A sering ngomongin soal si bapak ini...katanya biar tu orang atheis tapi tu bapaklah orang terbaik yang pernah dijumpai selama idup....dan bapak itu pun hidupnya bahagia...punya istri yang baik dan punya anak-anak yang sopan dan berhasil dalam hidup....die meninggal setelah mengalami kebutaan (tapi kebutaannya bukan penyebab meninggalnya beliau) yang cukup lama....tapi die gak nyalahin siapa-siapa akan kebutaannya dan tidak pernah putus asa cuma karena die buta......
Si A ngebandingin si bapak dengan orang yang banyak disekitarnya yang mengaku beragama tapi jahat....kena masalah dikit, langsung rame...berisik..
Lama-lama setelah ngobrol-ngobrol...kami sampai pada satu kesimpulan bahwa yang dibutuhkan manusia yang disebut homo social ini adalah ketrampilan-ketrampilan hidup untuk berdampingan dan bersosialisasi....
Gimana caranya kita bisa saling mengisi, hidup dengan aman dan nyaman bersama....karena pada dasarnya manusia sama....butuh "keamanan"....yang akan membuat nyaman....
Temen ane jadi ingat cerita Yesus yang ditanya murid-muridnya siapa yang masuk sorga......Yesus cerita ada orang Yahudi terpandang sedang melakukan perjalanan (Yahudi pada saat itu merasa paling bertuhan)....di tengah jalan die dirampok abis-abisan sampe sekarat dan hampir telanjang....lewat orang Yahudi juga....die lari terbirit-birit karena takut kalau sama orang asing di jalan....lewat lagi orang Yahudi satu lagi...lewat gitu aja karena takut die sendiri malah kena masalah.....lalu lewat orang Samaria yang dikenal saat itu bangsa yang tidak bertuhan...
Orang Samaria tak bertuhan ini malah merawat orang Yahudi kerampokan ini sampai sembuh.....sampai di sini Yesus menyetop ceritanya...
Nah lo....ane jadi mikir sebenernye ente mo percaya Tuhan gak percaya Tuhan pan as a matter of label.....cap doang....dari kaca mata orang lain yang ngeliat.........iye gak?
Yang kita butuhkan sekarang, sangat mendesak adalah ketrampilan hidup bersama....jadi gak usahlah gede-gedein perbedaan....cari persamaan....kayak ngomongin musik....kite seneng denger musik eh tu orang demen ama jenis musik yang sama pan enak.....kite demen sayur asem, eh ternyata orang nyang eno demen sayur asem juga....pan resep....
Hare gene ngomongin agama ama atheis....please deh....
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Eh crita yang bagus ...
haha gak ada tujuan mo berantem koq, diskusi saja ...
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10th December 2007, 18:52
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Addict Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OffLimit
Ini satu lagi argumentasi seorang Atheist yang gw suka ...
This is my take on religion. Thousands of years ago man began to wonder what the hell was going on. There was so much that they didn't understand that they decided that there must be someone behind the scenes controlling things. Reasonable thing to do if you are a caveman.
I think that most religions are based on the ideas that came out of a lack of understanding. Many of the things that they didn't understand back then have now been explained, but the biggy, "why the hell are we here", hasn't.
So does religion still have a place in the world today? I think that there are many, many people who can't cope with the modern world. Not their fault, the world has changed so quickly recently that people are no longer well adapted for it. For many of these people religion is a major support. And good luck to them. But for me the big question still hangs in the air. Why are we here? Where did everything come from? It seems that many people want to answer this with "God made it all". Now, OK, but that then simply begs the question "and what made God?" To anyone that then gives the answer "that isn't a valid question" or "God has always existed", I say that they are avoiding the question, not answering it. The real answer is that no one knows. So if we are happy to admit that we don't know where we all came from or why we are here, then we also don't need a half answer that God represents. Let's just stick with the fact that we don't know.
However, if there is a god and he (for the sake of syntax not gender preference) wants me to follow his rules then he is going to have to let me know personally and directly. No disrespect to him, but since people are very unreliable I'm sure he won't mind if I choose not to believe any of them that are preaching things that they have no proof of. There are more religions that you can shake a stick at and they all know that they are right. In most cases they preach peace and forgiveness but fight each other and in some cases, fight amongst themselves. Not a good sign if you want my devotion.
Fiuh selesai jg, ada komentar ?
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Gwe kagak bisa bahasa sunda.........
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MATAHARIKU
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10th December 2007, 18:55
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wall_hasil
Gwe kagak bisa bahasa sunda.........
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Ini bukan bahasa sunda, ini bahasa batak !
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10th December 2007, 18:57
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Addict Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OffLimit
Ini bukan bahasa sunda, ini bahasa batak !
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jangan bohongin gwe elo!!! gwe yakin itu ahasa Sunda.
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MATAHARIKU
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10th December 2007, 19:01
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wall_hasil
jangan bohongin gwe elo!!! gwe yakin itu ahasa Sunda.
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Lama2 ini thread ditutup jg
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10th December 2007, 19:10
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Addict Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mars
Posts: 791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OffLimit
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nah..klo ini gwe tahu, elo pake bahasa Arab kan.??
ngert gwe.....
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MATAHARIKU
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detikNews
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